I didn't say it was likely, I just said it was a possibility. What I'm trying to say is that teching in heatmor doesn't make you win instantly. If Durant gets more popular, so will heatmor. If heatmor gets popular, a) people will tech in a heatmor counter or b) people will stop playing durant. If B happens, people will stop playing heatmor, making it safe for people to play durant again.
THE Durant thread: Durant NV.
- Thread starter Nizolka33
- Start date
^That's way too broad of an argument. Can you actually name a Heatmor counter? And you missed the part where after people stop playing Heatmor and more people play Durant, people start playing Heatmor again. It's a loop, like the Tyrogue - Cleffa interaction is.
Any water type that can do 50 damage or more. Or Cobalion with black belt. It's clunky, but the point I was trying to make is just because Heatmor is out there, doesn't really mean people will stop playing Durant. Tyrogue was good because Cleffa was played in nearly every deck. Heatmor is a counter to a very specific deck. I honestly don't see Heatmor getting much play because would you tech in a card just to deal with a single matchup?
Except that Durant has never had good enough matchups all around for it to win a large scale tournament anyway, so Heatmor won't be huge. Its sorta like VVV, which is utterly destroyed by an Unown Cure tech, but nobody runs Unown Cure because VVV is not a serious threat, By the same logic, I don't think Heatmor will get that popular.
I think we all need to do some soul-searching.....Will we sacrifice a slot in our decks in order to troll Durant, the troll deck of the Pokemon community? I say yes. Firstly, purely because I don't like Durant. I don't like the tactic, and I don't like the way it looks at me.... Secondly, I will sacrifice a single slot in my deck in order to possibly pick up a win(s) against any Durant(s) I play at States.
^If it's not out by States, it won't be out by Regionals either. They're the same format.
Whether or not I run Heatmor will just be decided by whether or not Durant is still popular after it's released. I won't run it if I can go 50-50 or better with the deck, either. Then it's just a win more card, and I'd rather run a less matchup-specific card. It's great in decks that can't compete with Durant, though. For example Yanmega/Magnezone, although I'm not sure if that matters anymore.
Whether or not I run Heatmor will just be decided by whether or not Durant is still popular after it's released. I won't run it if I can go 50-50 or better with the deck, either. Then it's just a win more card, and I'd rather run a less matchup-specific card. It's great in decks that can't compete with Durant, though. For example Yanmega/Magnezone, although I'm not sure if that matters anymore.
Is Durant even good enough to donate a spot or two to a Heatmor tech? I hadn't realized it was even close to being a contender. I doubt anyone would play it at a large event like Regs or something (but then again, you never know...).
Still, I feel like Cities are much different from States or Regionals. I doubt someone would take Durant there and actually expect to make Cut; more experienced/skilled players seem to want to rely on their skill rather than simply getting good matchups anyways.
Maybe not. In fact, depending on the meta, Durant might have a better chance. The matchups are very important, possibly as much as skill or close to it depending on the meta just because of how all the decks work. Skill compensates for the matchups, but short of an absolute tool playing, an autoloss is an autoloss.
To put the matchups in more detail:
ZPST: If they get T1 bolt strike, the game's probably lost unless you can get rid of all three energy on your first turn with crushing hammer, as two bolt strikes puts them up two prizes and allows them to outrage sweep, making it that much harder to disrupt Zekrom. Even Tornadus with pluspower could get some early KOs. Given this deck already has good matchups against most of the board, this is the deck that Durant should really fear the most.
Tyram/Reshiphlosion One of the more annoying things about this deck is that if they get a couple Typhlosion in play, it's game. You really can't disrupt them much, and they can OHKO you at will, not to mention that Durant might mill fire energy and inadvertently provide acceleration. This deck is losing steam in the meta though, so I think Durant needn't fear this deck as much. I could see Weavile being helpful in this matchup however.
Eelzone This deck has an okay matchup against Durant, depending on whether it runs Zekrom or not. Crushing hammer flips are huge in this matchup, especially against Zekrom. Eelzone could set up two Eelektrik and two Zekrom to make crushing hammer more or less moot, but it runs the risk of catcher stalling. I'd say this matchup can go either way, and either way I think Magnezone is largely useless in the matchup. A well played N could cost the game though.
Chandelure I'll be the first to admit that I'm no expert on this deck. The Vileplume variant could be a huge problem for this deck, but the Vileplume variant might also need twins. Vileplume versions also can't OHKO Durant with its ability, and Tropical Beach is useless. I think the aggro version without Plume might have a good edge, but I think the Vileplume version is too slow unless it gets plume out very early. On the other hand, if the plume version runs energy, it might make the difference. This matchup depends a lot, I think, on what the Chandelure deck is running.
Truth I don't think this deck has much of a chance short of SEL sweep or T2 Vileplume. I honestly think it's a bit too slow, though this is all theorymon based on Durant vs other Plume decks, so I might be mistaken on this one.
Megazone UGH. I know from experience how bad this matchup is for Megazone. You pretty much have to lost burn since one special metal, eviolite, or anything that reduces damage, shuts down Yanmega. Having to constantly match hand sizes is also a luxury you really can't afford in this matchup. Crushing Hammer is the icing on the cake since this deck already takes a fair bit of time to get energy down, and with the lack of recovery, this is really as bad as it gets for Megazone.
CaKE Kyurem is kind of useless if they get Eviolite/SP Metal out, and Electrode Prime giving a free mill isn't good either. If Durant doesn't run sp metal/evio then Kyurem can probably shut down Durant pretty quickly. One thing that Kyurem does do well either way is deny the twins play unless Durant's got a baby on the bench. Cobalion can OHKO durant without any eviolite, but if it has eviolite, it suffers from the same limitations as Thundurus/Tornadus, and Durant's retreat cost is really too low to stall out much.
Durant punishes bad opening hands. Some people say that's too situational, but honestly, any Kyurem deck does the same. Neither deck bounces back well from constant OHKOs, but Durant's disruption is much higher. Durant does not take prizes however, so it's dead in the event of a sudden death, which might attribute to why Durant has many potentially good matchups, but only has a handful of tournament wins.
To put the matchups in more detail:
ZPST: If they get T1 bolt strike, the game's probably lost unless you can get rid of all three energy on your first turn with crushing hammer, as two bolt strikes puts them up two prizes and allows them to outrage sweep, making it that much harder to disrupt Zekrom. Even Tornadus with pluspower could get some early KOs. Given this deck already has good matchups against most of the board, this is the deck that Durant should really fear the most.
Tyram/Reshiphlosion One of the more annoying things about this deck is that if they get a couple Typhlosion in play, it's game. You really can't disrupt them much, and they can OHKO you at will, not to mention that Durant might mill fire energy and inadvertently provide acceleration. This deck is losing steam in the meta though, so I think Durant needn't fear this deck as much. I could see Weavile being helpful in this matchup however.
Eelzone This deck has an okay matchup against Durant, depending on whether it runs Zekrom or not. Crushing hammer flips are huge in this matchup, especially against Zekrom. Eelzone could set up two Eelektrik and two Zekrom to make crushing hammer more or less moot, but it runs the risk of catcher stalling. I'd say this matchup can go either way, and either way I think Magnezone is largely useless in the matchup. A well played N could cost the game though.
Chandelure I'll be the first to admit that I'm no expert on this deck. The Vileplume variant could be a huge problem for this deck, but the Vileplume variant might also need twins. Vileplume versions also can't OHKO Durant with its ability, and Tropical Beach is useless. I think the aggro version without Plume might have a good edge, but I think the Vileplume version is too slow unless it gets plume out very early. On the other hand, if the plume version runs energy, it might make the difference. This matchup depends a lot, I think, on what the Chandelure deck is running.
Truth I don't think this deck has much of a chance short of SEL sweep or T2 Vileplume. I honestly think it's a bit too slow, though this is all theorymon based on Durant vs other Plume decks, so I might be mistaken on this one.
Megazone UGH. I know from experience how bad this matchup is for Megazone. You pretty much have to lost burn since one special metal, eviolite, or anything that reduces damage, shuts down Yanmega. Having to constantly match hand sizes is also a luxury you really can't afford in this matchup. Crushing Hammer is the icing on the cake since this deck already takes a fair bit of time to get energy down, and with the lack of recovery, this is really as bad as it gets for Megazone.
CaKE Kyurem is kind of useless if they get Eviolite/SP Metal out, and Electrode Prime giving a free mill isn't good either. If Durant doesn't run sp metal/evio then Kyurem can probably shut down Durant pretty quickly. One thing that Kyurem does do well either way is deny the twins play unless Durant's got a baby on the bench. Cobalion can OHKO durant without any eviolite, but if it has eviolite, it suffers from the same limitations as Thundurus/Tornadus, and Durant's retreat cost is really too low to stall out much.
Durant punishes bad opening hands. Some people say that's too situational, but honestly, any Kyurem deck does the same. Neither deck bounces back well from constant OHKOs, but Durant's disruption is much higher. Durant does not take prizes however, so it's dead in the event of a sudden death, which might attribute to why Durant has many potentially good matchups, but only has a handful of tournament wins.
I'll help with Chandelure and The Truth. I am experienced with both:
Chandelure
This is a downright awful Chandelure matchup, probably Chandelure's worst. The Durants just keep milling, and Chandelure can't set set up. The only way for Chandelure to win is to do 60 to 3 Durant, and knock then out all at the same time. This works because if is very hard to get 3 Durant back in the same turn. Otherwise its Durant's game.
The Truth
The Truth is way to slow to get everything out. The Truth will never set up anything, and The Truth can't use Twins, so its easily Durant's game. Even though The Truth doesn't have to set up Reuniclus, its still too much.
Chandelure
This is a downright awful Chandelure matchup, probably Chandelure's worst. The Durants just keep milling, and Chandelure can't set set up. The only way for Chandelure to win is to do 60 to 3 Durant, and knock then out all at the same time. This works because if is very hard to get 3 Durant back in the same turn. Otherwise its Durant's game.
The Truth
The Truth is way to slow to get everything out. The Truth will never set up anything, and The Truth can't use Twins, so its easily Durant's game. Even though The Truth doesn't have to set up Reuniclus, its still too much.
Glaceon said:
If you're talking about speed chancy then yes, but with chandyplume it is how fast vileplume and Chaney.come into play