OU: Strategy The X and Y Metagame Discussion Thread

[MuhFugginMoose]

RE: The X and Y Metagame Speculation Thread

Heck, you could even carry a fire gem/grass gem if you want to REALLY ENSURE that he gets a free kill and switch.

Haha, sooo many people forget the mega stone is a hold item. So, he can't hold either gem.

 

[Ohman177]

RE: The X and Y Metagame Speculation Thread

Heck, you could even carry a fire gem/grass gem if you want to REALLY ENSURE that he gets a free kill and switch.

Haha, sooo many people forget the mega stone is a hold item. So, he can't hold either gem.

That was a baddy on my part. Fixed haha. Totally forgot. Strategy still holds though.

 

[TokenDuelist]

RE: The X and Y Metagame Speculation Thread

I am surprised I have to bring this up, but we are talking about competitive play are we not?

Sorting things into Smogon tiers has absolutely no meaning in that sense.

 

[iSharingan]

RE: The X and Y Metagame Speculation Thread

Mega Charizard is obviously going to be a lead on every team he is used on. MOST WEATHER INDUCERS ARE. So let's use hippowdon again ok?
1. Start of battle. Both come out. Hippowdon starts up a sandstorm.
2. First turn. Charizard mega evolves, induces sun, and uses solar beam right away on Hippowdon. OHKO. Same for politoad if my math is correct. Plus anything with snow warning never had a chance.
3. He switches out right away and goes into hiding until you need him. If someone changes the weather, you bring out a spinner if there's any SR and then send out charizard again to induce sun and then retreat.

Remember, a spinner isn't as badly needed after mega evolution. He goes from taking 50% to 25% and gains a few resistances with his new Dragon typing. I know this 'extra' 25% has been debated already so I won't go into it again.

I am surprised I have to bring this up, but we are talking about competitive play are we not?

Sorting things into Smogon tiers has absolutely no meaning in that sense.

You're mostly right, but some tier speculation is needed to show how it will effect the portion of a specific part of the metagame. For example, There's no freaking way Megazerd will be in RU with it's inferiorly-typed prerequisite, but the to speculating about it is guessing whether it will fit in OU or be banned to Ubers. there are enough leaks about potentially broken gen 6 mons that it's possible gen 6 OU may resemble gen 5 Ubers power-wise while gen 6 Ubers being on a whole new level.

 

[Frezgle]

RE: The X and Y Metagame Speculation Thread

Remember, a spinner isn't as badly needed after mega evolution. He goes from taking 50% to 25% and gains a few resistances with his new Dragon typing. I know this 'extra' 25% has been debated already so I won't go into it again.

Mega Charizard stays Fire/Flying, though.

 

[iSharingan]

RE: The X and Y Metagame Speculation Thread

Remember, a spinner isn't as badly needed after mega evolution. He goes from taking 50% to 25% and gains a few resistances with his new Dragon typing. I know this 'extra' 25% has been debated already so I won't go into it again.

Mega Charizard stays Fire/Flying, though.

-.- then where'd this Fire/Dragon junk come from? and forget what I've been saying then...

 

[PG24]

RE: The X and Y Metagame Speculation Thread

Someone said "man i wish charizard could be fire/dragon" and took the fangasm a little too far.

Alright kids, Mega Charizard isn't going to be run over Ninetales on sun teams. It's fundamentally bad for a weather wars due to the struggle it has with Stealth Rock and thus staying around. Don't say "lol spinners", because it's not hard to pressure shitty sun spinners like Forretress and Donphan. The argument that Charizard Sun does well against weatherless is terrible because sun already does a good job vs weatherless.

 

[TokenDuelist]

RE: The X and Y Metagame Speculation Thread

I am surprised I have to bring this up, but we are talking about competitive play are we not?

Sorting things into Smogon tiers has absolutely no meaning in that sense.

You're mostly right, but some tier speculation is needed to show how it will effect the portion of a specific part of the metagame. For example, There's no freaking way Megazerd will be in RU with it's inferiorly-typed prerequisite, but the to speculating about it is guessing whether it will fit in OU or be banned to Ubers. there are enough leaks about potentially broken gen 6 mons that it's possible gen 6 OU may resemble gen 5 Ubers power-wise while gen 6 Ubers being on a whole new level.

Their goal seems to be balance with this gen though. So we will see how they play that out.

Also, as for Mega Charizard. I agree that Mega Charizard will be boosted up pretty good.

Thinking about it, that extra power boost it gets might be the 50% it gets from Solar Power - without the HP hindering drawback. Throw another 50% onto that because of Drought, Mega Charizard starts off with a lot more attack power. Also Stealth Rock isn't ALWAYS a problem with Charizards.

 

[Dork Void]

RE: The X and Y Metagame Speculation Thread

Stealth Rock is always a problem with Charizards unless its your lead, but Charizard has plentiful weaknesses and counters and can't set up like most people want their leads to do. And I agree with TDL that so far Charizard still seems worse than Ninetales, especially because it hasn't even been confirmed that Drought triggers on the Megavolution (I think?).

Also, their goal is to balance this generation? Hah! Their goal is the same as its always been: to make money. They're making little to no money off of competitive Pokemon VG, so why bother designing for that? Making a type that's super effective against Dragons hardly counts as balancing considering afaik we've yet to see a decent Fairy type (maybe Sylveon? We still don't know that much about it) and the trainwreck that is Megavolutions for Pokemon already banned for being too strong certainly isn't intended to balance anything.

 

[TokenDuelist]

RE: The X and Y Metagame Speculation Thread

Stealth Rock is always a problem with Charizards unless its your lead, but Charizard has plentiful weaknesses and counters and can't set up like most people want their leads to do. And I agree with TDL that so far Charizard still seems worse than Ninetales, especially because it hasn't even been confirmed that Drought triggers on the Megavolution (I think?).

Also, their goal is to balance this generation? Hah! Their goal is the same as its always been: to make money. They're making little to no money off of competitive Pokemon VG, so why bother designing for that? Making a type that's super effective against Dragons hardly counts as balancing considering afaik we've yet to see a decent Fairy type (maybe Sylveon? We still don't know that much about it) and the trainwreck that is Megavolutions for Pokemon already banned for being too strong certainly isn't intended to balance anything.

Someone has a bitter and negative view. We can neither say they are or aren't. They stated before that they wanted to balance out the game. We have no logic of all these Mega Evolutions and what they ALL bring to the table.We will have to see what this generation can do for the metagame AFTER it's release.

Afterall this is a speculation thread. How do we know that mega evolutions won't bring some sort of variety? That's what I mean by balance. Yes a lot of Pokemon are stronger than most, but it would be nice to see X/Y give us a lot of variety on what to use ^v^

 

[zappy800]

RE: The X and Y Metagame Speculation Thread

Making a type that's super effective against Dragons hardly counts as balancing considering afaik we've yet to see a decent Fairy type (maybe Sylveon? We still don't know that much about it)

One word Xerneas. Also I can't stand those people who think the WHOLE type chart should be balanced. For one thing that makes it harder for them to potentially make a new type in a future gen for another it makes it way to hard to know what you should worry about.

 

[Dork Void]

RE: The X and Y Metagame Speculation Thread

Xerneas is probably going to be banned, even in official Nintendo tourneys. It might balance Ubers but that's not as widely played. I don't think that they should make new types, but I think that believing that they want to balance the game because they release a type super effective against Dragon is ridiculous.

 

[zappy800]

RE: The X and Y Metagame Speculation Thread

Xerneas is probably going to be banned, even in official Nintendo tourneys. It might balance Ubers but that's not as widely played. I don't think that they should make new types, but I think that believing that they want to balance the game because they release a type super effective against Dragon is ridiculous.

Yeah probably will be. Anyways I didn't say they should but that they could if they wanted.

 

[DNA]

RE: The X and Y Metagame Speculation Thread

Someone has a bitter and negative view. We can neither say they are or aren't. They stated before that they wanted to balance out the game. We have no logic of all these Mega Evolutions and what they ALL bring to the table.We will have to see what this generation can do for the metagame AFTER it's release.

I think I've said before that you balance a metagame by taking things out of it, not by adding more to it. They may say the goal is balance, but that is not even worth its weight in salt. The most they can do is tone down the power of stats, moves, and so on - perhaps even completely restructure the combat formula altogether.

But I believe I can say with little doubt that Mega-Evolutions will not bring balance whatsoever.

 

[Their Goominess]

RE: The X and Y Metagame Speculation Thread

Making a type that's super effective against Dragons hardly counts as balancing considering afaik we've yet to see a decent Fairy type (maybe Sylveon? We still don't know that much about it)

One word Xerneas. Also I can't stand those people who think the WHOLE type chart should be balanced. For one thing that makes it harder for them to potentially make a new type in a future gen for another it makes it way to hard to know what you should worry about.

I partially agree with you.
I think some types are perfectly balanced, and don't need tweaking (there are some exceptions, we'll come to that next).
However, there are some types that desperately need help. Ice is probably the most unbalanced type in the game at the moment. 3 out of its 4 weaknesses are some of the most common types in the game, the 4th is probably gonna get a bit more prominent if it turns out Steel is strong against Fairy. Ice's only resistance is to itself, which is pretty much useless.

Spoiler: Why Ice types need help

Ice types are generally the most ignored Pokemon. Even in OU play, which is rife with Dragons, about 90% of the time players will just use Ice Beam on their Water type or something, because with Stealth Rock flying around, Fighting moves being prominent, and Fire being a great offensive type, Ice just cannot support itself.
The only Ice types that really see any play:
Mamoswine - this thing has an almost unresisted STAB combination, it's also generally a great anti-metagame Pokemon
Cloyster - this thing only sees play due to having Shell Smash, Skill Link and the equivalant of a 125bp Ice move, and a 125bp Rock move. I can guarantee you it would be UU at most if it didn't have Shell Smash.
Black Kyurem - This thing has monstrous attack. An Outrage from Kyurem-B is gonna dent whatever it hits, if not directly OHKOing it. However it does have its flaws; it has a great attack stat, but not that many physical attacks with which to utilize it. It's also forced to go mixed if it wants to use both Fusion Bolt and an Ice move on the same set.
White Kyurem - This is just a murderer. Unlike it's brother, Kyurem-W has all the tools it needs for destruction. Fusion Flare is great coverage, it has Ice Beam/Blizzard, and then it's Draco Meteor is something out of this world.

(shoutout to Weavile, who I think went OU in D/P/Pt metagame, but those days are gone)

There are 5 simple steps to make Ice better:
1 - Remove it's weakness to Steel
2 - Give it SE damage to Steel (cold steel is brittle)
3 - Remove its weakness to Rock
3 - Give it a resistance to Dragon
4 - Give it a resistance to Ground
There you go, actual Ice types now have some form of defense against other Pokemon. It's still weak to Fire and Fighting, but I wanted to remove 2 weakness and those 2 seemed the best to keep.

Poison could also get maybe another type it can hit for SE damage, that and Fairy would give it 3 advantages, which seems fair. Water would be my first choice, I would think of Dark but that's been rumored to be weak to Fairy.


I've actually been thinking a bit on how viable the legendaries will be in Ubers.

Spoiler: Xerneas

-Immune to Dragon
-Weak to Poison and Steel
-SE on Dragon, Dark and Fighting
-Resists Dark, Fighting and Bug
From the appearance of this thing, it looks like its gonna be more Special-orientated. I'm hoping it's the more defensive of the 2, a defensive Pure Fairy could be interesting.
Hitting Dark for SE might be good, it means it may be a decent Darkrai counter. However, it's Dragon immunity is possibly the best thing it could have in Ubers. There are so many Dragons up there, any resistance is useful, but an immunity to them is a downright godsend.
No telling what could counter it since it may have the movepool to deal with its potential counters.

Spoiler: Yveltal

-Immune to Ground and Psychic
-Resistant to Grass, Ghost and Dark
-Weak to Rock, Electric, Ice and Fairy (rumored)
This thing looks like it's gonna be physical.
This thing should not be defensive in any way. It's weak to Stealth Rock, both sides of the BoltBeam combo, and from the looks of it Fairy might be quite a used type, and to be honest, it's resistances/immunites aren't that great in Ubers.
The thing I can see which might be a flaw with Yveltal: Unless it gets either Fighting, Fire coverage, or Earthquake, then Steel types could just come in and counter. Magnezone in particular; it can also hit Yvel for SE damage.
I'm hoping it gets Fire Blast. That would be very nice, plus it kinda fits with Yveltal's theme - what says destruction more than sending a huge blast of fire into something to destroy it?
Like with Xerneas, the counters we may think of now could be nulled due to movepools.

 

[One Approved]

RE: The X and Y Metagame Speculation Thread

Alright kids, Mega Charizard isn't going to be run over Ninetales on sun teams. It's fundamentally bad for a weather wars due to the struggle it has with Stealth Rock and thus staying around. Don't say "lol spinners", because it's not hard to pressure shitty sun spinners like Forretress and Donphan. The argument that Charizard Sun does well against weatherless is terrible because sun already does a good job vs weatherless.

This is debatable. First of all, sun's "shitty" spinners aren't that shitty. Forretress is great because of the pressure it can keep on opposing spinblockers. (ie: Volt Switching out of Jellicent, Gyro Balling a Gengar.) Donphan isn't that terrible of a spinner either as Jellicent won't like switching into an Earthquake from that high of an attack, nor will Gengar enjoy taking an Assurance. (Also if Honedge becomes OU, Donphan just flattens it. Your opponent won't even be able to block with it.) Starmie in sun isn't that bad either. Seems counterproductive but in a weather-based meta, your Sun won't be up 100% of the time. Not to mention it still has flawless coverage (Psychic, Ice Beam, Thunderbolt) even in sun.

Secondly, we don't know how Mega Charizard works. Once it powers up, does it stay powered up? Do you have to repeatedly power it up after you switch out? We don't know. If it just has to power up once, I don't see why it wouldn't be used more than Ninetales. Yeah it's 4x weak to Stealth Rock, but it carries a significantly higher amount of offensive pressure than Ninetales does. Ninetales is just laughed at by Tyranitar if it's not carrying Will-o-Wisp, and Politoed if it's not carrying Toxic. Charizard has a way to hit every single kind of opposing weather-inducer for high amounts of damage from both ends of the attacking spectrum. It carries Focus Blast which cleanly OHKO's Tyranitar, HP Grass/Electric for Politoed, and Fire Blast/Overheat will nuke any Hippowdon and obviously Lolbomasnow. Even from the physical side it has Swords Dance and Acrobatics to nail Politoed and weakened Hippowdon as well as Earthquake for Ttar. This isn't even counting the fact that Charizard may get some nifty stat increases. You get Roost too, which is really nice. The 4x SR Weakness doesn't stop Volcarona, I don't see why it should stop Charizard.

Mega Garchomp has Sand Force as its Ability.

Fairy-type is super effective against Fighting, Dark, and Dragon, weak to Steel and Poison, resists Fighting, Dark, and Bug, is not very effective against Steel, Fire, and Poison, and is immune to Dragon.

Steel‘s Dark and Ghost-type resistances are gone now.

Discuss 9.9

 

[DNA]

RE: The X and Y Metagame Speculation Thread

METAGROSS
BRONZONG

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

For someone who has been using Metagross as effectively his signature Pokemon since its debut, this is making me incredibly sad. You could say that Steel needed a bit of a nerf, but...ouch.

Fairy just utterly trumps Dragon and Fighting, and Dark as well. Heracross is like...hard-countered now by these things.

My comments about Fairy-type making things even more unbalanced is steadily coming true.

 

[TokenDuelist]

RE: The X and Y Metagame Speculation Thread

If what the leaks say about dual-type moves is true, than we might have a huge turn-around with the metagame. Everything we know will suddenly become new to us and we'll have to re-evaluate everything.

kind of sad to see Metagross take such a heavy hit though!

 

[iSharingan]

RE: The X and Y Metagame Speculation Thread

If what the leaks say about dual-type moves is true, than we might have a huge turn-around with the metagame. Everything we know will suddenly become new to us and we'll have to re-evaluate everything.

kind of sad to see Metagross take such a heavy hit though!

It's not like *every* move will be dual typed... The way I understand it is that only a few will be. It does raise the question of a [highly unlikely] 16x weakness to a dual typed move, or what hapens when a [X]/[Y] dual type move hits a pokemon with an ability that uses [X] type moves to heal/ boost stats/etc. while providing an immunity to that type (although this may function like fighting moves on Sableye/Spiritomb)

 

[Cinesra]

RE: The X and Y Metagame Speculation Thread

I've heard multiple times that dual type moves will for example be a move that gets Fighting type STAB but deals Flying type damage. This would be much more balanced than something doing both Fire and Flying damage against a Parasect in sun and the ridiculous damage multiplication.