Tier List (Update: 12/9)

RE: Tier List

Darkvoid57 said:
KYJ (Kingdra Yanmega Jirachi), could be Tier 2/1.

It's a really good deck.

I would consider steelix rogue

KYJ is pretty much under Yanmega Varients, since most KingMega decks run some Jirachi as a tech.
 
RE: Tier List

I'd say magneboar is tier 2.5-3. It's the slowest deck in the metagame and in a metagame ruled by fast stage 1 attackers like yanmega and donphan it doesn't stand much of a chance. And, due to it requiring so many cards, it's hard to get a consistant list. Plus, pretty much every deck has a counter to it.
 
RE: Tier List

What does TyRam and DD stand for? And you do realize that EVERYTHING could put combo'd with Yanmega, right?
 
RE: Tier List

TyRam = Typh-Reshiram. Sounds way cooler than boring old Reshiploshion

DD = DonphanDragons

Donphan EQs to power Zekrom's outrage to enable it to shoot down Yanmegas and Kingdras. Reshiram is a backup attacker and Kingdra Prime nerf machine. Additional techs like Zoroark could be added.

This deck was the 4th most populus deck during USA Nationals with ten variants going into Top 128 only behind Yanmega/Kingdra/Magnezone (45), TyRam (13), Magneboar (12) with most folding in the first round one and one peaking at the Top 8 losing to Dylan L (had a Yanmega tech)
 
RE: Tier List

Yoshidude10 said:
^Here's a few reasons why:

-Typhlosion's retreat is half of Emboar's(which helps against Catcher)
-Typhlosion has a great attack(destroys DCE users)
-with Typhlosion, you never run out of energy(and lets you run less because of it)

Just run 3/4 Sage's Training, 4 Juniper, and 4 Junk Arm, and you can get the Fire energy in the discard, no problem.

For the sake of discussion and in the defense of Emboar:

- Typhloshion's power deals 10 damage to Reshiram... every time it's used. This would give it a huge disadvantage against a mirror or even a Zoroark tech. Not to mention the setup is dependent upon the setup of 2 Typhlosions to run smoothly. One Emboar out allows a Reshiram to recover in 1 turn AS WELL as power up any Reshiram on your bench that very same turn, while 1 Typhlosion takes 2 turns to recover a Reshiram, all while dealing 10 damage.

- Typhlosion's attack is solid, no doubt but against a meta that uses almost no energy (Yanmega), 70 damage for a stage 2 isn't all that great, especially if you're going to use energy acceleration on Typhlosion instead of Resh that turn. Meanwhile Emboar has the benefit of a second attacker that can deal 150 in a single turn, while the ability Version can attack for 80 if you need him.

- HP is also in Emboar's favor. 150 > 140

- Energy Consumption. This is where I think the meat of the argument takes place. With Typhlosion, energy is readily available in the discard pile and it doesn't need recovery cards like Fisherman and Energy Retrieval. That gives it more room to fit PlusPowers, Reversals and a lot more flexibility overall.

Energy Recovery for Emboar comes strictly from Energy Retrievals and Fisherman. Personally, I run a 4/2 ratio of each allowing me to potentially reuse 16 energies in the deck, on top of the 12 that I already run. That's a lot of energy and is PLENTY of energy to fuel Blue Flare WELL over the 6-8 times needed to take 6 prizes... and I'm not even counting the use of junk arm.

Everything else between the decks are more or less equal. Emboar and Typh both utilize the Ninetales drawing engine, are stage 2's and can be ran in the exact same amount.



Let's get one thing clear... I not doubting Typhlosion as a top tier piece. I just want legitimate reason why he is preferred over Emboar because I honestly can't see it. I just want all the facts so can make the right decision when I build my list and try to make Reshiram the best that it could be.

One final word I honestly believe that the only reason Resh/Embar/Typh didn't do as well was simply because the sheer amount of Yanmega players. Had that raw number been anywhere close to even, We would be discussing a whole different list of top tier decks as I believe Reshiram takes a dump over Yanmega all day long.
 
RE: Tier List

Steelix wouldn't be so "suck" in people's minds if they stopped imagining him to be only playable with Scizor/Klingklang. Pairing him with combinations of Yanmega/Donphan/Zoroark/Cinccino will give him a fair shot at Fire decks, while an even to favourable match up against other decks. He's not Tier 1 for sure, but he's not completely unplayable either.
 
RE: Tier List

K2theAblaM said:
- Typhloshion's power deals 10 damage to Reshiram... every time it's used. This would give it a huge disadvantage against a mirror or even a Zoroark tech. Not to mention the setup is dependent upon the setup of 2 Typhlosions to run smoothly. One Emboar out allows a Reshiram to recover in 1 turn AS WELL as power up any Reshiram on your bench that very same turn, while 1 Typhlosion takes 2 turns to recover a Reshiram, all while dealing 10 damage.
In defense of TyRam:

The poke-power is why it's easy to make misplays in TyRam..... properly played TyRam is way better than Reshiboar could ever dream of. As it's been said many times, reshiboar is sort of weakness of TyRam... don't go compare which is better just because of that matchup. Zoroark is no big deal even it might pick a prize. With catcher in format soon it's easy to spot and bring for easy prize aswell.

About typhlosion prime, 2 energy retreat also taking in note that yanmega users usually have rescue energies in deck.

I have no doubt that Reshiboar stays difficult competitor even with catcher, but TyRam doesn't suffer as much from catcher as emboar does on that note. Also Reshiboar is more fragile to disturbing and vileplume.

Oh sorry about bragging about TyRam once again but i just had to jump into defense.
 
RE: Tier List

Stop arguing about TyRam, it's already in tier one as with Reshiboar. I still say drop them both down to Tier 2 thanks to all the Yanmega on the field but whatever, it's still tier 1 in most people's eyes.
 
RE: Tier List

The only way Reshiram, whether with typhlosion or emboar, will go down on the tier,is if people stop playing it. Which seems to be happening, but, only time will tell. When worlds comes around, we will just have to see how much play is seen. From my best guess, it'll end up being a bunch of Yanmega varients, ZPS, and a couple random rogues doing well, making Yanmega and ZPS top tier. I could be wrong, but I have to agree with hipoke, Reshiram should be tier 2.
 
RE: Tier List

Reshiram is what actually keeps Yanmega at bay. The 9-0 guy in masters using TyRam did murder a ton of Yanmegas on the way.

Reshiram is still Tier 1 no doubt. Catcher might have a say but they are still good and devastating to anyone who faces them.

Also, TyRam and ReshiBoar had a combined 20/128 Top 128 Cut in Masters, the Seniors runner-up also ran Reshiboar and I believe Mexico had a hefty amount of Reshiboar as well.

A deck doesn't become Tier 2 just because Yanmega is supposedly better and should hoard the Tier 1 by itself. No.
 
RE: Tier List

Riskbreakers said:
Reshiram is what actually keeps Yanmega at bay. The 9-0 guy in masters using TyRam did murder a ton of Yanmegas on the way.

Reshiram is still Tier 1 no doubt. Catcher might have a say but they are still good and devastating to anyone who faces them.
I agree alot with you ^

Catcher most likely affect all decks in both bad and good ways. Makes the game more strategized and less flip-based. (ofc start flip matters alot but whatever)


The thing why 9-0 guy lost was huge misplay, well it happens with that deck. :p
 
RE: Tier List

It's not the deck's fault. It was him falling to pressure. Happens to me all the time so I can't blame him. When I saw the brackets I was laughing when he lost to the 128th seed then I got slapped in the face when I read his story XD
 
RE: Tier List

hipoke said:
Stop arguing about TyRam, it's already in tier one as with Reshiboar. I still say drop them both down to Tier 2 thanks to all the Yanmega on the field but whatever, it's still tier 1 in most people's eyes.

Lol, Reshiram wipes the floor with Yanmega.

Zhaituki said:
Oh sorry about bragging about TyRam once again but i just had to jump into defense.

You're not bragging about anything. It's called a discussion and we both have points to prove. I'm just looking for a explanation for why people rank Typhlosion over Emboar when talking about tiers. (which you haven't given me btw)

Anyways...

Zhaituki said:
In defense of TyRam:

The poke-power is why it's easy to make misplays in TyRam.... properly played TyRam is way better than Reshiboar could ever dream of. As it's been said many times, reshiboar is sort of weakness of TyRam...

I have no doubt that Reshiboar stays difficult competitor even with catcher, but TyRam doesn't suffer as much from catcher as emboar does on that note. Also Reshiboar is more fragile to disturbing and vileplume.

You don't say HOW it's better. You're telling me it's better, but offer nothing against my points on my original post. What about the limited energy acceleration? The need for 2 Typhlosions instead of 1 Emboar for the deck to run smoothly, the weaker attack, the 20 damage every time you power Reshiram up and the lack of a heavy hitting attacker like Emboar 19.



The retreat cost is something to look at. 2 is definitely better than 4 but with unlimited energy attachment it's not a big deal as you may think. This is also why Emboar players are forced to run multiple copies of switch... making the retreat cost a minor negative when compared to the limiting energy acceleration and damage that Typhlosion's power does to Resh.


Can you counter?
 
RE: Tier List

Well look at it from this standpoint. When you catcher the Emboar out, you're most likely safe from any offense dealt on you. Pulling Typhlosion out on the other hand, you have to knock it out or else it's gonna hit for 70 while discarding an Energy from you which can be a DCE or Rescue.

Also, when you maximize your Switches for Reshiboar, you'd be sacrificing deck space and consistency. Forcing Emboar to retreat will also eat up a Fisherman. The energy used to retreat could have been used to feed Blue Flares. I believe the main advantage TyRam has over ReshBoar is that it will rarely encounter a drought as compared to Reshiboar when it loses it's recovery cards.

That's all I'd say now because I'd rather have Zhai finish it out since it's both of you discussing.
 
RE: Tier List

K2theAblaM said:
Lol, Reshiram wipes the floor with Yanmega.


You're not bragging about anything. It's called a discussion and we both have points to prove. I'm just looking for a explanation for why people rank Typhlosion over Emboar when talking about tiers. (which you haven't given me btw)

Anyways...


You don't say HOW it's better. You're telling me it's better, but offer nothing against my points on my original post. What about the limited energy acceleration? The need for 2 Typhlosions instead of 1 Emboar for the deck to run smoothly, the weaker attack, the 20 damage every time you power Reshiram up and the lack of a heavy hitting attacker like Emboar 19. Can you clarify?



The retreat cost is something to look at. 2 is definitely better than 4 but with unlimited energy attachment it's not a big deal as you may think. This is also why Emboar players are forced to run multiple copies of switch... making the retreat cost a minor negative when compared to the limiting energy acceleration and damage that Typhlosion's power does to Resh.


Can you counter?
You obviously haven't played it or don't know how to play it properly. It's not just typhlosion's power that's used to power up reshiram, there's also turn energy. :p Wise use of afterburner makes TyRam better.

The more you use energies, the more you use your tools to gain them back. It is why TyRam is the more consistant one. While Reshiboar perhaps strikes more quickly, but runs quicker out of energy... that's the problem. :p Also the list is not as much techable due it's forced to run many fisherman and energy retrievals. But as i said, it's useless to compare them against eachother.

Then again: Don't compare which is better just cus of that certain TyRam vs. Reshiboar matchup.... Compare after you tried both decks against other metagame decks than eachother.
 
RE: Tier List

Riskbreakers said:
It's not the deck's fault. It was him falling to pressure. Happens to me all the time so I can't blame him. When I saw the brackets I was laughing when he lost to the 128th seed then I got slapped in the face when I read his story XD

Where is his report? I'd like to read it.
 
RE: Tier List

It's on http://google.com/.com. It'll be on page 2, titled, Nationals: The 9-0 Roller Coaster, and it'll have a picture of Reshiram next to it.
 
RE: Tier List

Zhaituki said:
You obviously haven't played it or don't know how to play it properly. It's not just typhlosion's power that's used to power up reshiram, there's also turn energy. :p Wise use of afterburner makes TyRam better.

The more you use energies, the more you use your tools to gain them back. It is why TyRam is the more consistant one. While Reshiboar perhaps strikes more quickly, but runs quicker out of energy... that's the problem. :p Also the list is not as much techable due it's forced to run many fisherman and energy retrievals. But as i said, it's useless to compare them against eachother.

Then again: Don't compare which is better just cus of that certain TyRam vs. Reshiboar matchup.... Compare after you tried both decks against other metagame decks than eachother.


Thanks for this reply! This is what I was looking for.

More room for techs would be great. My Emboar list is extremely tight and any changes would lower the consistency of the deck. Also, I'm a HUGE proponent of Emboar 19 (Attackboar) since he's so readily available and a definite game changer with his 150 hp and 150 damage attack. I'm not sure losing it is worth the added room for additional techs, but I'm open to trying it if it means a more solid, consistent Reshiram build.

And although Energy starvation isn't something I've run into personally, I can see how it could happen with Emboar's retreat and the need to do multiple Blue flares to knock out tank pokemon like donphan.

I guess I'm just going to have to build it tonight and test it for myself.

I'll update you guys with my findings.
 
RE: Tier List

Dark Void said:
It's on http://google.com/.com. It'll be on page 2, titled, Nationals: The 9-0 Roller Coaster, and it'll have a picture of Reshiram next to it.

Interesting article. I'm going to try out a Typhlosion deck against my Reshiboar.
 
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