Top tier decks after ND

alexmf2 said:
Actually, I think number 2 is quite a lot more likely. And "that 1-of Communication" that I have is easily gotten. By the time that I need it, I will have gone through at least 2/3 of my deck, and if I draw into it, I use it, even if I don't need it. Junk Arm is amazing.

I have seriously never used Communication for a basic, except maybe once on the first turn for a Cleffa. Yeah, there are many, many turns where you need a basic. Just use Collector, Magnetic Draw to try to get a Collector, use Pokegear/Random Receiver to get a Collector, and if all else fails, just use N or something in the hope of getting it. IMO, if you use Communication to get a basic, it's a complete waste of a Communication.

I have no idea of the circumstances of when Celio's was played, so I have nothing to say to this point.
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Its not a waste, because as you said junk arm is amazing
 
It's illogical that number two can be more likely. Even if we assume the chance of needing a basic = the chance of needing an evolution (it's not; you need basics more since evolutions are useless without them), number two has another factor playing into it to ruin that equality.

If you haven't used Communication to get basics, you're being too close-minded or you haven't playtested nearly enough. I do that once a game on average. Heck, I had a deck built for awhile that only ran four evolution cards and I still ran 4 Communication because it's just that much better than Dual Ball.

The very nature of deckbuilding goes against your argument. To win a game, you need to have options and outs. You cannot just play a linear game unless your opponent gets a bad start. Putting restricting cards into your deck ruins the chance you have an out at any given point. Communication gives you more options than Heavy Ball ever can, so it's a better card in more situations.

Also, I'm not sure if you realize this, but nobody is jumping to agree with you. There's like four people saying you're wrong.
 
Celebi23 said:
It's illogical that number two can be more likely. Even if we assume the chance of needing a basic = the chance of needing an evolution (it's not; you need basics more since evolutions are useless without them), number two has another factor playing into it to ruin that equality.

If you haven't used Communication to get basics, you're being too close-minded or you haven't playtested nearly enough. I do that once a game on average. Heck, I had a deck built for awhile that only ran four evolution cards and I still ran 4 Communication because it's just that much better than Dual Ball.

The very nature of deckbuilding goes against your argument. To win a game, you need to have options and outs. You cannot just play a linear game unless your opponent gets a bad start. Putting restricting cards into your deck ruins the chance you have an out at any given point. Communication gives you more options than Heavy Ball ever can, so it's a better card in more situations.

Also, I'm not sure if you realize this, but nobody is jumping to agree with you. There's like four people saying you're wrong.
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Why would you ever need that many basics every game? I find that crazy, Pokemon Collector should get you everything you need. If I ran a deck with only four evolution cards I would run 3-4 Communication as well, but more so that I could get the evolutions...

Just because I never need to Communication for a basic does not mean that the entire theories and natures of deck building come crashing down on top of me. If I am that desperate for a basic, I'll use Collector, and get 2 more basics that I can use for things. After you get past the oh-so terrible part that you cant get a basic with a card you shouldn't be getting basics with, you start to realize that in the reverse situation, you can keep that needed basic and get an evolved pokemon that you need just as much, if not more. Just because Communication gives you more options doesn't mean its automatically better than Heavy Ball, if that were so we might as well play 4 Ultra Ball.

I realize that no one else here agrees with me. That does not make me want to add Communications, as I have tested a lot and Heavy Ball is just absurdly better in Magneboar. The other two people agreeing with you have all said no more than "I agree with Celebi," which isn't very persuading.
 
^Oh. Well I wasn't running Collector. I forgot to add that. XP I hate that card since after you play the first one, it's so dead. It's unfortunate how necessary it is in most decks. 6 Corners style decks are the only ones that can get away without using it. It's a great example of a card with little to no secondary uses.

Collector is a supporter. There are many times you need to get a basic and get a new hand. This is where Communication comes in. Having to use Collector for all your basics is yet another example of a situation where you force yourself into making a linear and limited play because of a poor decklist.

Games take unpredictable twists and turns. Saying "you shouldn't ever take basics with Pokémon Communication" makes it look like you have a sub-par understanding of the game. It's simply impossible to predict what situations you'll end up in in a luck-based game. Going into a game saying, "I'm not going to use Communication for basics this game" puts you at an automatic disadvantage. Going into a game with a limiting card like Heavy Ball over Communication forces you into this mindset since you don't get any other options. This puts you at a similar disadvantage.

And yes, we might as well play four Ultra Ball. Lol. As soon as Junk Arm gets rotated, this will probably become the norm.
 
Celebi23 said:
^Oh. Well I wasn't running Collector. I forgot to add that. XP I hate that card since after you play the first one, it's so dead. It's unfortunate how necessary it is in most decks. 6 Corners style decks are the only ones that can get away without using it. It's a great example of a card with little to no secondary uses.

Collector is a supporter. There are many times you need to get a basic and get a new hand. This is where Communication comes in. Having to use Collector for all your basics is yet another example of a situation where you force yourself into making a linear and limited play because of a poor decklist.

Games take unpredictable twists and turns. Saying "you shouldn't ever take basics with Pokémon Communication" makes it look like you have a sub-par understanding of the game. It's simply impossible to predict what situations you'll end up in in a luck-based game. Going into a game saying, "I'm not going to use Communication for basics this game" puts you at an automatic disadvantage. Going into a game with a limiting card like Heavy Ball over Communication forces you into this mindset since you don't get any other options. This puts you at a similar disadvantage.

And yes, we might as well play four Ultra Ball. Lol. As soon as Junk Arm gets rotated, this will probably become the norm.
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I like Collector, even in decks where you could switch it for Dual Balls. I used Collector both when I played ZPST and 6 Corners. I don't however plan on using Collector if I play MTC, and I am considering running 4 Dual Ball/1 Pichu in Magneboar or other slow setting up decks, to help deal with MTC's fast basic ko's.

I'm not telling myself before every game "Never, ever, ever, ever, ever use Pokemon Communication for basics." I'd obviously do it if I ever was in the situation where it would be beneficial in the long run to do so. I just have never been in a situation like that before.
 
Another factor in Magnezone decks particularly is Pokemon Communication can actually help you get non-Pokemon cards in a Magnezone deck. For example, I have a Thundurus in my hand but its mid to late game and my bench is full. This Thundurus will sit in my hand until I Junk Arm or N it away if I don't have Pokemon Communication, and until that happens I'll be drawing one less card whenever I Magnetic Draw. With Communication you can put that card back and get something you can play or fail search, then you get another card from Magnetic Draw, which is unbelievably helpful. Communication also prevents you from decking out. Heavy Ball does nothing in these scenarios. Communication can also search out Magneton, and while you state Magneton is useless, why are you running it then? The point of Magneton is that it is more searchable than Rare Candy. If you use Heavy Ball as your evolution searcher of choice, you might as well not run any Magneton and up your Candy count.
 
alexmf2 said:
I'm not telling myself before every game "Never, ever, ever, ever, ever use Pokemon Communication for basics." I'd obviously do it if I ever was in the situation where it would be beneficial in the long run to do so. I just have never been in a situation like that before.
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My point is that if you're running Heavy Ball, you've basically told yourself that since Heavy Ball is effectively a Communication that can't search most cards.
 
Dark Void said:
Another factor in Magnezone decks particularly is Pokemon Communication can actually help you get non-Pokemon cards in a Magnezone deck. For example, I have a Thundurus in my hand but its mid to late game and my bench is full. This Thundurus will sit in my hand until I Junk Arm or N it away if I don't have Pokemon Communication, and until that happens I'll be drawing one less card whenever I Magnetic Draw. With Communication you can put that card back and get something you can play or fail search, then you get another card from Magnetic Draw, which is unbelievably helpful. Communication also prevents you from decking out. Heavy Ball does nothing in these scenarios. Communication can also search out Magneton, and while you state Magneton is useless, why are you running it then? The point of Magneton is that it is more searchable than Rare Candy. If you use Heavy Ball as your evolution searcher of choice, you might as well not run any Magneton and up your Candy count.
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The times you pointed out are extremely situational, and I would not judge whether to play a card or not based off of those situations. I run Magneton mostly only for trainer lock, and in trainer lock I couldn't search it out with either cards. If I do need it in other games, I will just use Junk Arm for Communication, or use N or Magnetic Draw to try to draw into it. My Candy count is already 4 (Magneboar, not EelZone), and as I said before, the Magneton is needed against trainer lock.

Celebi23 said:
My point is that if you're running Heavy Ball, you've basically told yourself that since Heavy Ball is effectively a Communication that can't search most cards.
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Would you mind rephrasing that? I don't really understand what you mean.
 
Okay, I'll try. We've both admitted that we would use Pokémon Communication for a basic in a situation where it was beneficial. Not doing so would be too close-minded, and it would put you at a disadvantage. If you dropped the Pokémon Communication for Heavy Ball in your deck, you no longer get the option to search for basics you could with Communication. This puts you at the same level as a player who refuses to search for basics with Communication, since you don't even get the option to do that with Heavy Ball. It therefore puts you at a disadvantage.
 
Celebi23 said:
Okay, I'll try. We've both admitted that we would use Pokémon Communication for a basic in a situation where it was beneficial. Not doing so would be too close-minded, and it would put you at a disadvantage. If you dropped the Pokémon Communication for Heavy Ball in your deck, you no longer get the option to search for basics you could with Communication. This puts you at the same level as a player who refuses to search for basics with Communication, since you don't even get the option to do that with Heavy Ball. It therefore puts you at a disadvantage.
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Ok, so it makes it so I cannot search for basics with a card not meant to search for basics. After you get past that uncommon situation where you would need to, it is better in every single way, except maybe in the situation Dark Void mentioned about putting a useless card back in your deck.
 
alexmf2 said:
Ok, so it makes it so I cannot search for basics with a card not meant to search for basics. After you get past that uncommon situation where you would need to, it is better in every single way, except maybe in the situation Dark Void mentioned about putting a useless card back in your deck.
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It is better in every way... after that, but you can't search for Magneton, Reshiram, or any other basics. IT isn't worth it because your also lowering your hand size so you can draw more
 
iisnumber12 said:
It is better in every way... after that, but you can't search for Magneton, Reshiram, or any other basics. IT isn't worth it because your also lowering your hand size so you can draw more
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We've been over not being able to search for basics over like the last 7 posts... I also mentioned the hand size thing in my last post.
 
alexmf2 said:
We've been over not being able to search for basics over like the last 7 posts... I also mentioned the hand size thing in my last post.
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I know, but I bring up my point that communication would be much better and ultra ball would be even better than communication
 
iisnumber12 said:
I know, but I bring up my point that communication would be much better and ultra ball would be even better than communication
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Ultra Ball? You would waste an insane amount of resources with both Ultra Ball and Junk Arm.
 
alexmf2 said:
Ultra Ball? You would waste an insane amount of resources with both Ultra Ball and Junk Arm.
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So you can draw a ton with magnetic draw and toss away Rare Candies, Collectors, Spare Ultra, Communication, and Heavy Ball
 
iisnumber12 said:
So you can draw a ton with magnetic draw and toss away Rare Candies, Collectors, Spare Ultra, Communication, and Heavy Ball
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And what about early game, when you need pokemon and have valuable and needed cards in your hand?
 
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