Finished Mafia XLII: War of the Gods ~ GAME OVER ~ Town wins!

[Celever]

The issue with it is mindset. Trying to prove reasonable doubt so as to not be lynched comes from scum, as their main aim is to not be lynched period. Trying to prove you're town comes from, as you may have guessed, town. And everyone is privy to these subconscious biases no matter what -- it's how such a town vs mafia game really works.

 

[bbninjas]

The issue with it is mindset. Trying to prove reasonable doubt so as to not be lynched comes from scum, as their main aim is to not be lynched period. Trying to prove you're town comes from, as you may have guessed, town. And everyone is privy to these subconscious biases no matter what -- it's how such a town vs mafia game really works.

I've said why I probably didn't end up trying to prove myself as town but rather not scum. It's good to know that's how you'd like people to defend now, but it might be a mindset with an issue, but it isn't a mindset that is inherently scum's.

 

[Celever]

Firstly, would you think that the scum would have noticed this? Secondly, would you think that inexperienced scum would have noticed this? If it was a facade (which is funny, because you're saying this on behalf of a few other players), then this should be evidence against an experienced player coordinating the scumkill.

Firstly, do you think that scum, especially inexperienced scum, would have noticed 5 individual instances of someone potentially saying you're scum though only in connection with NP, and then though "yeah, we can't kill bb because he's obviously going to be on the block Day 2". And then does everyone else really think that bb has considered this before making the posts (plural) about scattered being such an obvious target because of these explicit 5 individual phrases? It simply doesn't add up, and the simplest theory is usually the correct one.

And I said this... where? Sure, I went into the night thinking that I *could* be killed, but I still thought that scattered was much more likely regardless. In hindsight, since scattered is probably town, him being the kill choice is especially more obvious.

It's obvious that he was a good kill choice in hindsight because it happened (though you actually said he was a bad kill choice yet the obvious one to go for), but then we have to question why you felt the need to point it out on multiple occasions. That would be, of course, to try and cast reasonable doubt onto me as the confirmed doctor. Because you're scum, and in a small game like this, two confotownies on Day 2 is a terrifying prospect for you.

I'd also like to point out that this post and the one above is based on how you think the game should be or was played, and has nothing to do with actual, solid scumtells.

I disagree. It's nothing to do with how the game should be played, but rather how it is played by everyone due to subconscious biases. After all, you've admitted that it crossed your mind that you might be killed now (though whether that's true or not is yet to be determined) so it's nothing to do with how I think it should or should not be played.

I've said why I probably didn't end up trying to prove myself as town but rather not scum. It's good to know that's how you'd like people to defend now, but it might be a mindset with an issue, but it isn't a mindset that is inherently scum's.

Well do you want to try and make the argument now? That you're actually town, and not just not scum?

 

[GM DracLord]

I just got back. I have internet access fully now.
ABout who do you think is the scummies, I don't think I'm skilled enough to judge someone purely based on the arguements laid out. Usually I the point raised after a NK as my reference.

 

[JadeGemTM]

@Jadethepokemontrainer Oh and without any details on D2, that is actually perfect, now you can give us your thoughts on bbninjas, Mirdo, NP, and Celever only by what you have seen during D1, and then we can see your opinion on them after we give you the summery on D2, to see what you think there. That info could be gold for town.

You can just post a brief sentence next to each name.

Day 1 reads:

NP ~ more aggressive. Does no one else think it's suspicious that he turned the case onto Lord to avoid getting lynched himself? It seemed that everyone kinda dropped his case after that..(?) I'm still seeing him as scum

Mirdo ~ Was there a case on him day one? I was reading him as town.

Celever ~ I was reading him as scum at first, tunneling into NP, but that could go either as town scumhunting or scum.

bb ~ I don't think I really understood bb's case. He seemed to be contributing as town.

if this isn't what you wanted and I misunderstood what you asked, let me know.

 

[Scattered mind]

Day 1 reads:

NP ~ more aggressive. Does no one else think it's suspicious that he turned the case onto Lord to avoid getting lynched himself? It seemed that everyone kinda dropped his case after that..(?) I'm still seeing him as scum

Mirdo ~ Was there a case on him day one? I was reading him as town.

Celever ~ I was reading him as scum at first, tunneling into NP, but that could go either as town scumhunting or scum.

bb ~ I don't think I really understood bb's case. He seemed to be contributing as town.

if this isn't what you wanted and I misunderstood what you asked, let me know.

I guess, it depends on how much you know about D2.

For your summary:

Mirdo's case is that he has been the only inactive player to lurk so much, putting him as a scummy player who tries flying under the radar. Also his reactions are aggressive, panicked, and dodgy.
Celever is a one shot doctor and he used his ability to save me from the NK.
NP said that he was roleblocked, which raised a bit suspicion because of the kill that got blocked, but then NP explained why this can't be true if Celever is really town doctor. If you think NP is still scummy, I suggest looking at that post, perhaps you can see something suspicious about the whole thing.
bbninjas's case is about a scumslip supposably, but I'll let you judge by yourself. Have you read Celever's case?

 

[mirdo]

Mirdo's case is that he has been the only inactive player to lurk so much, putting him as a scummy player who tries flying under the radar. Also his reactions are aggressive, panicked, and dodgy.

Aggresive? Sure. If you say so.
But panicked. Not really. I'm pretty chill cause i don't have anything to hide because I'm town and you are misstaking not posting with lurking. Thats all

 

[mordacazir]

(which I've rarely, if ever, seen you do in the past)

In superheroes Mirdo lurked the same as he does now but made different kind of posts so I believe mirdo's reason here that it's just a lot of stuff.

Yes. Obviously he doesn't. I meant the general consent of my person from everybody after my Pie Chart Thread. At least i had the feeling.

What am i supposed to post when you are with the knives at each other throats. You had like an 2 Pages discussion about Cel beeing a scum doctor and just general having your tinfoil head way to tight on your head.
I explained why I'm not that active back on Day 1 but hey. How even reads. When you can just shoot at the bird in the sky?
Like i said. Im not lurking. Im just omnipresent in the forum. But don't have time to read the big threads and answer to them 24/7. And why would i insert myself into EVERY case?
Your arguement calmed down and i posted my opionon about that mess.
What do you want more?

This seems really town to me

post #415

Yep, okay. To me it just doesn't seem a real slip. I don't know why.

How does that actually make bb feel pressured?

It's a vote, so it's like a statement. I can say BB is scum but if I do not vote its just a hollow statement.

I also said that my reads were similar to yours yesterday.

Yep, you did. Except I did. I said that my reads were similar to yours and NP's. But somehow in my book that just makes you scummier.

Well, I can't really role fish him after he claimed, but anyway, I just wanted to understand what exactly happened. After NP's comment later on, I understand his explanation of him not likely be the scum who tried to kill me if Celever doctored me.

I forgot that he claimed. Oops

In fact, I've seen @Ice Espeon around, yet he still hasn't actually posted anything. He's doing some major lurking, which is also a common scumtell for him. ##UNVOTE ##VOTE: Ice Espeon

This is the second or maybe even third time that you atleast try to shift attention to someone else. Isn't that scummy. (The other 2 times being Mirdo and lorde)

 

[mordacazir]

Also, the reason why I have not posted yesterday is because indianopolis. And @Camoclone is now viewing the thread, and isn't he the sub for jesi? Of you are, can you post. Your probably making a post right now though.

 

[bbninjas]

Firstly, do you think that scum, especially inexperienced scum, would have noticed 5 individual instances of someone potentially saying you're scum though only in connection with NP, and then though "yeah, we can't kill bb because he's obviously going to be on the block Day 2". And then does everyone else really think that bb has considered this before making the posts (plural) about scattered being such an obvious target because of these explicit 5 individual phrases? It simply doesn't add up, and the simplest theory is usually the correct one.

Yes, I would think inexperienced scum would think like that. If they noticed a number of suspicious posts - or even just one, and especially since you were somewhat vocal about it, I'd expect them to think I've got more suspicion on me than I actually do. They tend to exaggerate a bit, after all. I know this from experience playing scum for the last few games. In fact, I wouldn't completely discount the player's Abilities to make kills - the players have all been playing for a few games now; they're not newbies and thus should end up picking up stuff like this.

Again, I've said why I think scattered was the most obvious kill choice - they were experienced and barely had any suspicions on them. That simple. Now, if a more experienced player was coordinating the kill, they would have thought about how much information a scattered flip would reveal. This is a more complex idea that most scum wouldn't have gotten to yet. From the limited knowledge I have, scattered probably wasn't the best option simply because he interacted with a lot of people, but that really depends on who is actually scum and who scattered actually interacted with.

It's obvious that he was a good kill choice in hindsight because it happened (though you actually said he was a bad kill choice yet the obvious one to go for), but then we have to question why you felt the need to point it out on multiple occasions. That would be, of course, to try and cast reasonable doubt onto me as the confirmed doctor. Because you're scum, and in a small game like this, two confotownies on Day 2 is a terrifying prospect for you.

I pointed it out on multiple occasions because you brought it up on multiple occasions without appearing pay any attention to it. So of course I'm going to repeat it. First instance [here]; second instace [here] - clarifying why I wouldn't be an 'as obvious' kill as scattered on your prompting; third instance [here] - first time where I brought up scattered without Celever specifically mentioning him, however, is that an issue? I'm naturally going to bring something relevant like that up (I'm actually comparing scattered and myself here since Celever was comparing us in a previous post), especially because it's the root of the 'tell' Cel is discussing in this post.

I've only brought this up on just three instances, which is nothing compared to the entire content of my posts, and certainly not as much as you seem to paint it as. Plus, aside from the first, the instaces were prompted by posts that you made. In close, your point here isn't even valid.

I disagree. It's nothing to do with how the game should be played, but rather how it is played by everyone due to subconscious biases. After all, you've admitted that it crossed your mind that you might be killed now (though whether that's true or not is yet to be determined) so it's nothing to do with how I think it should or should not be played.

Well do you want to try and make the argument now? That you're actually town, and not just not scum?

I don't really know what you're getting at in the first paragraph.

Second paragraph; I sorta did two posts ago. There's really only one point that I'd consider strong:

Why would scum me unnecessarily risk trying to push for Prof P on a fake scumslip, assuming he's actually town? All I'd did is garner more suspicion for myself.
​

There's also me being mason, which is something that should trigger caution. Beyond that, there's not too much that prove a town alignment (I'm trying to play the game?) as it's early days and no scum have actually flipped yet. I'm trying to not tunnel and more broadly consider the options, and also the flaws in my arguments (e.g. with the scumslip); I'm not too sure if anyone has really been able to rebuttal my points beyond differences in scumhunt playstyles or metareads.

I just got back. I have internet access fully now.
ABout who do you think is the scummies, I don't think I'm skilled enough to judge someone purely based on the arguements laid out. Usually I the point raised after a NK as my reference.

I think you are skilled enough tbh.

Yep, you did. Except I did. I said that my reads were similar to yours and NP's. But somehow in my book that just makes you scummier.

I'm pretty sure I said after that your read was also similar to mine, but I could've got the order wrong.

This is the second or maybe even third time that you atleast try to shift attention to someone else. Isn't that scummy. (The other 2 times being Mirdo and lorde)

I'm generally not just going to stick around doing nothing and letting myself get lynched! If that's how things happened, it'd literallly be a game of "be the first person to post a case on someone and push until they get lynched". Day 1 I wasn't really a lynch option (people were saying I'm scummy for Day 2), so I couldn't have been trying to direct attention away from myself (e.g. with lorde) anyway.

Also, the reason why I have not posted yesterday is because indianopolis. And @Camoclone is now viewing the thread, and isn't he the sub for jesi? Of you are, can you post. Your probably making a post right now though.

Camo can't post, if he was the sub, until the hosts announce that the sub has actually happened.

Townie post from morda. I'm leaning towards mirdo being town also (posts like the one morda quoted), and also because their frustration with me trying to get them explain their vague thoughts is not something I'd really expect from scum - scum (especially newer scum) tend to be wanting to please, as they don't want to be seen scummy. As such, I'd expect scum mirdo to just try hard to explain them rather than say "why?". I'd like to see a bit more of @Jadethepokemontrainer.

 

[bbninjas]

Here's my reads list:

Town
@scattered mind - Pretty much confo as the nk target
@Celever - Likely doctor, I feel like he'd be less strong on his case on me as scum (since he's pushing town); I just feel like he'd be playing a bit risky if he was scum. I can't help this feeling that Celever is scum and is just pushing for me through intentionally discounting my points, because he's entirely capable of getting away with that as scum, although this read is strengthened by the doctor claim.
@rainyman123 - His posts tend to be genuine (especially this one in RVS) and I think he's putting in the effort to scumhunt - he's asking questions. Considering he generally just bandwagons with a vote, especially as scum, it's a welcome change.
@mordacazir - When he posts, he's generally scumhunting, which is great. He's being helpful in providing his reads, and honestly I just don't see anything off with him. That doesn't exclude him from being scum, but at this point, I think it's fairly likely he's not.

Leaning Town
@Prof/GM Draclord - Mostly from his role; he's a mason, and scum roles tend to not relate with town roles as explicitly as Prof's claim did. This is a little shakey, however, as my read on Drac is a bit weird. Drac seems to be avoiding a bit this game. GM Drac's behaviour this past game tended to be saying "I'll be lurking" a lot, probably to make sure noone lynches him for it. This game, Drac's saying 'I'm not good enough', but I don't think he's just saying it all the time like he did last game; and I do recall him saying something like this in past games as town.
@NinjaPenguin - I feel like he's also been trying to scumhunt, and his points are sometimes a bit wild, which is consistent with his town play. I can't put my finger on it, but there's generally something distinguishably different between his scum play and town play; of course, that's not saying that he could've fixed that up this game. I also feel that the Celever vs NP was townie vs townie, and the general apathy towards his lynch until very late into the Day seems to indicate scum just letting town get lynched.
@mirdo - There's posts like that pie chart that are so weird that I just can't see scum doing it. It's either town mirdo trying hard to scumhunt, or scum mirdo unsure how he normally scumhunts; I'm thinking the former as more probably, but I could see mirdo going out of his way to do that as scum. I also think mirdo is town from his frustation which seems genuine as described in my post above. This is my most shakey town read.


Neutral
@Jadethepokemontrainer - I really need to see more of them. It doesn't help that they haven't fully caught up yet; and their reads are all "everyone's town" without giving any scum reads; scum sometimes have no 'scum reads' because they know everyone is town, except for their scumbuddies, which scum also like to say are town. Of course, that's a super weak tell, hence why I'd like to see more.
@Haunted Water/@PikaMasterJesi - Neither player was really around, which is super annoying. More by process of elimination I've put them here, but I also think that Jesi not even posting anything is weird. She does this as town too, so it's not of much help.

Leaning Scum
@Ice Espeon - Lurk, lurk, lurk. He's been around to post, and he's played enough games for lurking to not be an excuse, yet he never does. It's completely apathetic and pro-scum and consistent with his scum play. This makes even more sense if GM Drac or NP are actually scum, due to the question he asked of Prof (if scumbuddies, he'd know why the 'slip' happened and thus tried to give an 'out', or at least stall the pressure) and he voted lorde instead of NP Day 1.

--

Realistically, just how things tend to go, one or two of my Neutral/Leaning Scum are probably scum, and then one or two of the Leaning Town (which are all somewhat shakey) are probably scum. I could actually see a GM Drac/Ice Espeon/NP scumteam, as if you notice, both Drac and IE voted lorde, and there's this link between Drac and IE. You might be thinking; I've listed both Drac and NP as leaning town - huh? Drac and NP are both leaning town individually, but if any of those three flip scum, I'd say that the other two are definitely worth considering.

 

[Vracken]

@Camoclone is subbing in for @PikaMasterJesi, however he has stated he is not going to be present for a couple of real world days, so he is on V/LA.

@mordacazir I had to make contact with him first, at the time of your post, Camoclone had not subbed in yet, otherwise I would make an announcement ^w^

 

[NinjaPenguin]

Day 1 reads:

NP ~ more aggressive. Does no one else think it's suspicious that he turned the case onto Lord to avoid getting lynched himself? It seemed that everyone kinda dropped his case after that..(?) I'm still seeing him as scum
What would you expect a townie to do if they were probably going be lynched and no other options were being brought up?
Mirdo ~ Was there a case on him day one? I was reading him as town.

Celever ~ I was reading him as scum at first, tunneling into NP, but that could go either as town scumhunting or scum.

bb ~ I don't think I really understood bb's case. He seemed to be contributing as town.

if this isn't what you wanted and I misunderstood what you asked, let me know.

In superheroes Mirdo lurked the same as he does now but made different kind of posts so I believe mirdo's reason here that it's just a lot of stuff.
And he was scum in Superheores.
This seems really town to me

Yep, okay. To me it just doesn't seem a real slip. I don't know why.

It's a vote, so it's like a statement. I can say BB is scum but if I do not vote its just a hollow statement.
But if you say your vote is pressure, is it any good?
Yep, you did. Except I did. I said that my reads were similar to yours and NP's. But somehow in my book that just makes you scummier.

I forgot that he claimed. Oops

This is the second or maybe even third time that you atleast try to shift attention to someone else. Isn't that scummy. (The other 2 times being Mirdo and lorde)
Townies value self-preservation just as much as scum. A townie should always try to bring up alternative options to their lynch if they're doomed otherwise.

My issue with the IE case is that he hasn't posted at all today, and will probably be subbed out. If he suddenly quadraposts to dodge the modkill, he's much more suspicious to me.

 

[Vracken]

Day 2 Vote Count 2

All votes are in chronological order
The players being voted are in alphabetical order
The player(s) with the most votes is tagged

If you think there’s anything wrong please ask
@bbninjas 2: bbninjas | Celever (vote) | mirdo (vote)
Celever 0: NinjaPenguin (vote) |
@mirdo 2: scattered mind (vote) | NinjaPenguin (vote) |
NinjaPenguin 1: Rainyman123 |
scattered mind 0: ninjapenguin | bbninjas (vote) |
Ice Espeon 1: bbninjas (vote) |

The following players need to step up their activity. @Ice Espeon and @Jadethepokemontrainer.
A reminder that Day 2 will end in 24 hours.

 

[GM DracLord]

I think it isn't really practical to suddenly introduce another lynch candidate with the amount of information presented in just mere 24 hours left. At this point I'm trusting bbninjas more hence ##VOTE: mirdo

 

[Celever]

I really think that mirdo is town because of the tone of his posts and also the general "apathy", as it seems to come from a place where he has no clue what's going on.

I dislike how bb made lots of posts about the importance of spreading pressure and then didn't do so himself.

 

[mirdo]

I think it isn't really practical to suddenly introduce another lynch candidate with the amount of information presented in just mere 24 hours left. At this point I'm trusting bbninjas more hence ##VOTE: mirdo

As of right now i don't think we have any ideal lynch candidate what so ever. Because even BB says that im not that scummy. But hey, sure. Eliminate the easy target as soon as youself start to get under fire because of the things myself and bb pointed out on page 24 . You're kinda lucky that noone picked that up yet and it kind got sweeped under the rug.

Even if it might be my own death sentence. Imma ##Unvote:BBNinjas and ##Vote:GmDraclord
We still quite a few people who didn't vote. So i might not be dead yet.

 

[mirdo]

Just to clarifiy. As of then we didn't have any amazing Lynch targets. But just now one might have opened. It's not his fault that he was inactive. But there still is something fishy. I do know a thing or two about fish

 

[Scattered mind]

Post a full case on GM Drac, mirdo. This is not going to save you.

 

[mirdo]

Post a full case on GM Drac, mirdo. This is not going to save you.

Multiple people saying im town is not going to save me?
I mean.
Sure. Good logic.

Any howzers:

The GM Dra-case:

Points against his lynch:
-Had a legit excuse to why he was inactive and why he probably didn't read everything.
-Is usually helpful in activity and playing the game (in other games, but so am I to a similar extend i feel like)

The pros of a lynch:
-As I explained earlier, stupid reason on why voting me
- dodging questions and weird reasoning again

Spoiler: Exhibit

At this moment i Sincerely belive that atleast one of you guys who are posting are scum sinc ethe others are too inactive. since without nk there isnt much to learn other then the dicpscussion going around.

Other than the normal active group, i have nothing much to say about the others without knowing the real reason of their inactiveness

Why do you think one of the most vocal people are active? Currently the only case being pursued is really me, so unless you think I'm scum, that means that the active players are pushing lynches on town players. That means that the scum players benefit a lot from lurking and being inactive.

Who do you think is the scummiest player and why?

These have been right after another and BB quoted the above post by GM

-Not helpful in finding Scum what so ever so far.
-Stand- In for PP whom people also had suspecion about (debateble if those Suspecion had been justified doe tbh)
-Lynching him would give about as much Information as lynching me but a lot people agree that i am town so it would make more sense to lynch him #Duh